When your parents’ abilities reduce and their care needs to grow, how do you turn those challenging family conversations into caring and constructive talks? Join Cathleen as she speaks to Ellen Waldorf, the founder, and principal of eWaldorf Mediation in Newton, Massachusetts. Ellen has mediated hundreds of cases, primarily focused on divorce and family issues. A sought-after speaker in mediation, Ellen shares with us some of her hard-won knowledge in mediation and specifically focuses on how to have a more fruitful family dialogue and achieve thoughtful solutions.
Episode 33: Ellen Waldorf didn't succeed in her first career goal as a new Yale graduate. She interned on “Late Night with David Letterman" then turned her attention to Law. She has a B.A. from Yale University and a J.D. from the New York University School of Law. Before meditation, she worked for a private investor, practiced corporate law, clerked for a federal appellate court judge, and taught English in China.
Ellen transitioned to mediation work full-time in 2001. Her firm, eWaldorf Mediation, has successfully mediated hundreds of cases including divorce, family, probate, and business issues. She co-leads Divorce Mediation Training Associates and Step to Center. Ellen also serves on the board of the Community Dispute Settlement Center.
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Cathleen: Welcome to Seniority Authority. I'm your host, Cathleen Toomey, and I track down experts to answer your questions on aging. Let's get smarter about growing older. Thanks to our show sponsor the Riverwoods group, Northern New England's largest family of a nonprofit retirement communities where active adults find community purpose and peace of mind visit riverwoodsgroup.org. Welcome to Seniority Authority. I'm your host, Cathleen Toomey. Lucky for us, Ellen Waldorf didn't succeed at her first career goal as a new Yale graduate. Ellen interned with late night at David Letterman. Shortly after she turned her attention to law and graduated from N. Y. U. Law School and honed her skills clerking for a judge, then entered corporate law before transitioning to mediation work full time in 2001 today her firm E Waldorf Mediation has successfully mediated hundreds of cases including divorce, family probate and business issues. Ellen has taught mediation training to other mediators, law students, professionals and is a sought-after speaker on mediation today. Ellen shares with us some of her hard-won knowledge in mediation, specifically focused on how to have a more fruitful family dialogue, a topic she has presented on regularly. Welcome to the program, Ellen.
Ellen: Thank you Cathleen, glad to be here.
Cathleen: It was such a delight for me after hearing a presentation for you to agree to come on the Seniority Authority podcast because so much of what you said rang true for me as a sibling of five with older parents and I really thought that your wisdom would be great to share with our audience. We all know that family dynamics can get in the way of making progress when it comes to important conversations and luckily your a professional that's done this for years. So let's just dive in and start talking about this. First of all, are family conversations inherently different than other forms of mediation in your experience?
Ellen: I think that all conflicts are emotional. So sometimes we think family conflicts are like the emotional ones. But I think even things that we have our relationships and conflicts at work or in our social organizations that are not family all have emotion. I think what makes family conversations different is we are less inhibited with our emotions when we're with our families. Families are supposed to be the safe place where you can be, let it all hang out and sometimes that is terrific and sometimes not so good. We also, I think in families have histories about things that have happened in the past or ways that we've been treated and our perception of people that sometimes can get in the way. And also we have expectations. We want our siblings, our parents, our loved ones to, you know, be the best and support us in certain ways. And so sometimes we are even more disappointed when what we want from them is not what they can give us. So that also can complicate family conversations too.
Cathleen: That's a great distinction. So family is our bedrock where we grew up, honed our identity and it is true that we oftentimes treat people that we love worse than strangers because we believe they are going to accept us warts and all. And so we're not on our best behavior.
Ellen: And also it's a safe place. We are trained, you know, to kind of get through our day at school, at work, whatever. And when we get home, we're just exhausted and we, you know, let our guard down. And so you're right that we often want our family to be that place where we can just be who we are and we don't have to be the public selves. We can be our private selves.
Cathleen: And I can see where that can if everyone is relaxing and being their private selves and not necessarily their best self, that can contribute to challenges when you're trying to mediate some big things. You talk about identity. And one thing that I'm curious about is when we have these family discussions and family dynamics, how typical is it for people to be pigeonholed in the identity that they created when they were young in their family or do people, is it easy for people to break out of those identities?
Ellen: Well, I mean, I think that's, you know, you and your therapist or all of our listeners and their therapists, you know, I think the challenge sometimes is we also revert sometimes to roles, you know, in our very peripatetic American society, people are often in motion. So you may not see me in my professional, you know, super capable where everyone respects me, like you remain may remember me as the bratty kid who you last saw at six years old when you headed off to college. So your relationship and your your understanding of my life and what's going on just because we may not see each other on a regular basis that that we still may love and care about each other, but we may not know really fully appreciate and really be aware of the full person that we are as adults. So I think it really depends on person to person, family to family.
Cathleen: Right about those adult identities. Can you tell us some of the most common mistakes that people make when trying to resolve a problem? So in this podcast episode, I'm sure everybody in the audience is taking notes. We're trying to make it as practical as possible. So when you're talking about family dynamics and mediation, what are some common problems that you see people doing that you would recommend they not do to have a more productive conversation?
Ellen: I think generally the problem is when people who are, you know, listening to your podcast are probably calling because there's a loved one, either they are the loved one that is aging and is concerned about how to talk with other family members about their wants and needs or, you know, are I'm guessing our listeners are that adult child needs nephew, loved one who's concerned about an older adult. And I think sometimes the challenge something has happened that makes people weary and want to have these conversations. And I think the challenge that I see most frequently is that the person who wants to have the conversation is jumping to a solution, you know, in school we’re given a problem and rewarded when we come back with, you know, the answer, here's the solution. Here's the here's the challenge, the word problem in mathematics or you know, explain this imagery in a paragraph and we come back and we have a solution and an answer and many times in work that's true too. But this coming back with a solution doesn't work in human relationships because what we're not doing is listening to the other people. So where I am concerned because I saw how, you know, how poorly on my parent is moving or I saw, you know, the dents in the car and I'm like, why? You know, I'm saying you can't drive anymore, racing to conclusions without understanding what the issue is or hearing from everybody else about their needs. And that can be true also with siblings where, you know, I may be the local adult child and I'm trying to get my siblings engaged in this or maybe I'm the child who lives far away and I'm frustrated that my, you know, divorced sibling who has been living at my parents house is not on board with doing X Y and Z, and I want them to do something different. So it's less, everybody is acting what they think is the best way of doing things and they're in our own heads, we are doing the right thing. So the question is we need to be listening to everybody else in the conversations and not jumping to solutions because that raises people's defenses rather than relaxes them um, and helps them engage in a conversation. So that's the biggest thing that I see.
Cathleen: And I think that makes sense because if you are, you know, doing something from you’re, a professional adult and you've got your used to coming to a problem with the solution, you're not used to just thinking about it. Is there a trigger or a word or a recommendation that you would have for people who are getting into this conversation and finding themselves saying the answer is x there something that you'd recommend?
Ellen: Well, there are lots of things that I recommend and I think these are, you know, when we are taught talking about conversations about family, about the care of an individual or someone's financial well-being or a vacation home that we all love using but haven't had to worry about yet because somebody else did that. I think there will not be an instantaneous solution if it's to the point where it's a difficult family conversation, one needs to prepare for these conversations, one needs to see these conversations. I would love to talk about expliancy and finding ways to invite family members to the conversation. There are times when families are in crisis and there does need to be a decision made if someone fell and you know, they're going to be released from rehab soon. And the social worker is telling us, you know, where is your loved one? You know, where loved one are you going to be? Sometimes we don't have a lot of time and we’re forced to make decisions, but I think the more that we can have these decisions before we reach a crisis, the more options there are, the more ability we have to listen to everyone who, you know, is it will be affected by the conversation and affected doesn't mean that it's going to affect my finances or require me to do something, but it's a sibling, I may care and that may be enough for an adult child. So I think recognizing that people need time to prepare for these conversations and think about them um, and not racing to the solution, which is oftentimes what we're kind of like, here's the answer you need to stop driving sometimes also reframing the issue too in a more narrow way by coming up with the solution instead of understanding what, what are someone's needs and helping us brainstorm things that will accommodate everybody's needs.
Cathleen: And when you talk about being inclusive, the most important thing is to have the parents or the older adult involved in that conversation, not to talk around and without the person that you care about. So to the extent that it's possible to involve the person that's I would think very critical.
Ellen: Absolutely. I mean, I think the reality is, I think, you know, it is hard for ourselves are changing capacity as we age and we get a achier or it takes us longer to recover from that sports injury, which is frustrating, you know, even when we might be in our thirties, forties or fifties and then to presuppose that we know what the prior generation wants and the older adult, I think part of where the younger generation is coming from is a place of love and a place of caring most of the time. But unless you are listening to your loved one, the older adult, you are really disregarding a lot. And also you're going to get pushback when people don't like decisions. You know, they'll let you know one way or the other that it's not working for them. Um, and I think also the discomfort also for the younger generation, oftentimes is what an older adult wants may not accord with what we think in my family, there are area rugs all over a home where you know, that's a really poor idea for the adults who are living in that home, but they're not gonna move and I have to live with the fact that, you know, even though they shouldn't be there, they will be there. And you know that the risks that older adults is willing to take or not, the risk that I'm willing to take, but that's not my choice.
Cathleen: We have a saying at RiverWoods that everyone has the right to make a poor decision and unless they are really putting themselves at risk or a family member at risk.
Ellen: And the reality is we all have made poor decisions in our lives.
Cathleen: Absolutely.
Ellen: And sometimes those poor decisions, you know, we scraped by and it all turned out okay. And on occasion those are poor decisions that come back to bite us. And I think just because we get older and our capacities change doesn't mean that we don't have the right to make more decisions. And so I think sometimes that is part of the problem for, you know, the next generation, the adult child or adult, these or nephew who is concerned about the older adults. The choices may not be the same as the older adult has capacity. They are the deciders.
Cathleen: And I think that is difficult because it's like a parent with a child. You want to make sure the child is safe and happy and nurtured and sometimes they're going to make choices that you don't agree with and learn from that and the same thing can, you know, we don't stop learning, we don't stop experimenting and believe me, we don't stop making poor choices only we could age out of that. That would be that bad. You mentioned fight flight and freeze. Tell me what the significance is. Of those three responses. And how does that inform the mediation process? So the family conversation process.
Ellen: I think the reality is we are all designed to protect ourselves.
Cathleen: If you're getting smarter, help us reach more minds. Leave us a review on apple podcasts. So others know we're legit tell your friends to follow us on social or subscribe to our newsletter at seniorityauthority.org.
Ellen: We are self-protective and we act in self-protective ways. Fight flight and freeze are the extreme examples of those, and we have all been in those situations where we are frightened, we are overwhelmed, and we are just designed to respond to that you know saber tooth tiger that's lunging towards us and we take immediate protective action. It's what gives us that adrenaline rush to get out of there. Whereas on a normal day I can't even run two steps. But those reactions, the challenge when we are true fight flight or freeze mode is that we're not thinking our brains are too busy protecting ourselves and so that what we're trying to do and having difficult conversations is trying to keep the emotional temperature in the room and a place where people are not fight flight or freeze so someone is not jumping up and angry and ranting and raving and out of control or the reverse where someone is so being so protective that they're shutting themselves down. So those are things where when people are getting too hot or cold in their emotional temperature, the effectiveness of the conversation is waning and take a break and let people get that energy out to calm down. And that maybe just let's take an hour, let's walk around the block that maybe let's go get a drink of water. That maybe, you know what, let's wrap up and we'll send an email and schedule another time to continue this conversation. But when people are in that mode, we're not thinking. So some of our behaviors also may be ugly to those who are witnessing them. So if my protective behavior with my family is to jump push back my chair and start yelling at everybody in the room. You know, everybody else may not be so appreciative of my behavior, but we need to understand that that's coming from a place square of protection. And so ultimately, when I am calm, you know, we can start exploring what am I protecting about or what's going on. Or if anyone loved one is not as active in the conversation is shutting down or is not paying attention anymore. These are signs that people are the protective parts of their body which we can feel in our body, we can feel for me, it's it's tension in my muscles. I may not have noticed it immediately, but I can feel it or sometimes it's breathing or some people their hearts to actually start racing. And so I think it's when you are in these conversations recognizing that you know, they can trigger some of these very deep fears or you know, concerns that require that kind of protection. So being on the alert for in ourselves and in those other family members to take a break to calm down, to let people, you know, kind of recenter before they come back to the conversation rather than pressing ahead.
Cathleen: And that makes sense to me. And if someone's response is to fight and yell, I can imagine that's gonna trigger someone else to freeze and to pull away. And one of the things that that you mentioned earlier when you and I were speaking is that when we're in protection mode it takes us sometimes up to 25 minutes to re center, that you have that adrenaline going and that animation of energy or upset or protection and it just takes a while to throttle back down. You can't just do it immediately and
Ellen: 25, 20-30 minutes is like an average. There are sometimes when people takes people longer, you know, we're conceivably less time, but it's your whole body, your whole reactive system is being caught up in this protective mode and it does take you time. I mean it's almost like inflating a balloon and taking time to, you know, or a tire that you might have a slow leak to kind of reset it, and that's the way to kind of think about when people are in really true fight flight or freeze mode. So the idea is to kind of get ourselves before and other people in the conversation before we get to the point where the point of return is going to be a while.
Cathleen: So speaking of that, what do you recommend as the best way to set up a conversation for success? If you know this is going to be a challenging conversation that might spur protective feelings and that people might be rushing to judgment with answers. How do you suggest our listeners reset and get ready for a successful conversation?
Ellen: Well, I think the first thing is this shouldn't be a surprise conversation if we don't, you know, and to invite people to the conversation, to think about who should be there, who should participate or at least be invited. Again, I may say, you know what you got a handle on this. You know, I'm halfway around the world in a different time zone and you know, I trust you to have this conversation just let me know how it comes out, but inviting people to share ideas, inviting people to think in advance to think not only about the topic itself, but also to think about how people in the family interact best with one another. Is there a time of day that would be better? You know, we're all we're morning people, so we're fresher, you know, or we don't get up till noon. So you know what like we shouldn't be meeting at eight o'clock in the morning because I won't be awake, I won't be paying attention. I haven't had my caffeine, whatever it is. Thinking about the length of the meeting. Thinking about, you know what having people be thoughtful about being aware of when they are triggered, you know, when do we need to encouraging people to take breaks and call for breaks when we need them. But also allowing to the setting up the conversation as preliminary. I'd love for us to get together and talk about, you know, mom, I I care about your living situation and I'd love for us to talk and hear what you have to say. So thinking of it as a preparatory information sharing kind of thing and helping people prepare for it and have it not be like we're gonna be here for an hour and we're going to get the answer granted if you're in a crisis, you're going to have to have an answer. But I think the more that you can help people participate, let them know that you're, you know, it's not, here's my solution. I'm just waiting for you all to sign on, but I want to hear, I have ideas, but I'm curious and I think also understanding what our own triggers are and what our own motivations is. Is it, you know what I love your parents, but you know what? I live 30 minutes away, I cannot shovel you out anymore in your home. I just, you know, throughout my back and my I'm being advised that I can't do that anymore. And so, you know, you might need to, you know, we need to think about how to keep you in your house or maybe this is not the right place for you. I don't you know, I think it's also framing the conversation in a more broad way. You need to move. The question might be, you know, how do we make your home work for you? Whether they're here someplace else, you know, what is it that you need and to think of it, you know? So framing the question broadly inviting people to think about it in advance and allowing the extent possible to for people to, you know, this is just information sharing. Is there more information that we need? You know, this is, you know, the first, the beginning of a conversation rather than this is the one time.
Cathleen: That sounds terrific to step back to invite people in to prepare them for what they are going to discuss and invite them to bring their thoughts and ideas, but be clear that we're not trying to answer this right away? We're trying to listen. I think that those are that's great advice. How should the conversation be guided? And is there anything that you'd recommend avoiding? You've said avoid jumping to conclusions? So don't say we're here to talk about the challenge and I've got the answer, it's X. So we know to avoid that. Is there anything else that are common mistakes that our listeners should avoid when they're trying to thoughtfully set this up?
Ellen: Yeah. So I think, you know, there is a psychologist who is a mediator and a teacher of mediation named Erica Gray who has a pneumonic that she uses for professionals like me, it's called I.P.I.O.S. It’s I. P. I. O. S.
Cathleen: Okay.
Ellen: Identifying the issues then, identifying what in our field is called positions. What are people saying? You know, mom and dad you gotta move. That's a position I'm saying here's the solution I've come up with. But underneath it is something else and that's what we're trying to figure out. Why am I saying? What I need to say is it, you know, my concerns or you can't maintain this house and you know that would be habitable or that, you know, it's two floors and you know, I see how long it takes you to get upstairs each day and how painful it looks like when you walk downstairs? You know, is this really knee replacement surgery that you need or do you need to move. So what is it that's motivating the conversation? That's what she calls in our field, we call interest, but it's what are the underlying needs that give rise to the solutions that our brains race to. Once you identify everybody's the needs that everybody's trying to satisfy, then you can come up with options basically brainstorming. How do we satisfy those needs that we're trying to satisfy in whatever we're going to come out and lastly is solutions. So it's said as a pneumonic as if issues, positions, interest, options and solutions is actually a linear progression. It's not, like.
Cathleen: That would be too easy.
Ellen: It would be too easy. I like in conflict resolution. I recently shared with a class, I was training a video of a unicyclist who was juggling flaming batons at the same time cycling forward and in many ways I think that's a lot of what having these difficult conversations are. And the reason I think I.P.I.O.S. or you know, another way to think about all of this stuff is, you know, is that what you are going to be when you get stuck in a conversation, it means we need to step back. So we're talking too soon about solutions, which is why I'm getting you know, resistance. My parents are saying, no, no, no, we're not moving. We're very happy where we are that what bothers you doesn't bother us. So that means I need to step back and listen, understand some of the interests or so anytime you get stuck in a conversation, what haven't I done what haven't I uncovered? And my framing the issue too small and narrowly. And I need to widen it. The other thing I would say is a practical matter. The way you actually get to what's going on for people is to ask open ended questions. A lot of the time we asked closed ended questions, questions that can be answered yes or no. For example, you know, when I teach conflict resolution skills, we ask people to try this at home. And one of the things people often relate to us is, you know, when my Children come home, I usually say, did you have a good day? Did you have a good day is a closed ended question, I can say yes, I can say no. And then that's the end of conversation. On the other hand, I can ask an open ended question, a question that might say start that doesn't have a yes or no answer like a what? Why? Where explain? Tell me. So, if I say to this child instead, what happened in school today, the child can't say yes or no and answer that question and I can't say yes or no, but it invites a larger explanation. So one of the first things that we need to do is ask these open questions too. Mom, dad, you know, tell me about how living in your home is these days. How does it work for you these days? What's working well? What's challenging? So, those are questions that are broader, they're not leading you down, they're there to listen. The other thing is actually listening. Most of the time when someone talks were racing to say, okay, when it's my turn in our heads, whilst this person is talking, talking, talking, we're racing in our heads and saying, oh, when it's my turn to speak, this is what I'm going to say, because I'm going to, you know, this is not a point counterpoint. It's not a debate. The idea is to listen. And the other important thing about listening is to let people know that you heard them. Quick statements like, oh, I get it. Or I heard that they sound very dissatisfying. But if I reflect back to you, what I'm hearing is that you love your home because you love the garden and you're able to, you know, curl up and you can play bridge here and you can invite friends over. So those are things you love to do. The problem is you can't you're having difficulty, you know, cleaning the gutters or X, Y or Z. That I'm showing that I'm listening. But also part of this is knowing that people will correct you, I will be wrong sometimes and that's okay. It's not a test. It's to make sure that people are being heard. There's a Maya Angelou quote, which I'm sure I will misquote. But it basically is to the effect that we don't remember the words that people say. We remember our feelings. And I think that's a key thing in family conversations. Did I feel I was respected. Did I feel I was understood? Because even if what I want doesn't get done, I can still feel like I was heard that, you know, my fears and concerns that have brought me to the conversation I can share with my parents or my loved one, my aunt, my uncle, whoever it is that I'm concerned about or my siblings, you know, I'm concerned that if you don't do something, I don't want to have to, you know, I won't be able to come across the country and to your bedside if you know, you have a fall and so I'm trying to prevent that. You know, if you're telling me that you're okay with me not being there, I'm still going to be sad because I'm going to want to be there, but I'm torn because I have to deal with my kids. I just can't drop everything. You know, I'm sharing that with you. So being heard is really critical.
Cathleen: I think being heard is really important. That is the key is that in a discussion. Family conversation, not everyone is going to get their way, but if they all feel like they are heard and understood. And I think that's a really good point that you just brought up of active listening, that you listen and then you restate, what I understand you to say is you're feeling this way, is that? And then checking, is that right? Yes. Okay. So we've got that on the table and then I like this demonic of I.P.I.O.S, which is issues, positions, interests,
Ellen: options,
Cathleen: options, and solutions. Okay, So here's the issue. This is my position. This is why I feel this is why this is the interest that I have that informs my position, here's some options and then together become two solutions. So checking internally to make sure that you're not being stuck in your own interest and not open to other options or solutions.
Ellen: Yeah. And I think that's the challenges when, when we and many of us are very capable in whatever is our area of expertise that we, you know, someone comes in, we can size it up, get them out, you know, they're done, you know, and that's great and a lot of us that's what we're paid for. But that often doesn't work in in families where were not hearing what people are saying. So taking these steps becomes critical and sometimes, you know, helping other people understand what you're doing will also help them check you because we are, you know, we're all human, I teach this stuff and I promise you, I'm not perfect in my own family. So we all get caught up and it's uh, you know, it's good to be reminded where am I or to allow ourselves time to reflect, I didn't that go as well as I had hoped. It would, Oh the this is what I did.
Cathleen: Well I love the fact that you say, what brings you success at work and your endeavors is not necessarily what is going to bring you success in a family conversation. And just to acknowledge that you may be the best accountant, you may be the best architect or pipe fitter or plumber, but the way you approach your work is not necessarily the way you approach these conversations. That's really important for us to remember. How do you know, if a professional mediator would help the situation? I think a lot of our listeners are kind of in the same point of view where they would love someone like you to come in and mediate their family discussion, but they're not sure at what point to bring in a mediator before it breaks out. How do, what do your successful clients do?
Ellen: I think the reality is that if families can have these discussions on their own successfully, so people walk away, you know, with relationships intact, then please, you know, I would prefer that families be able to do that, but I think that there are different reasons why people might reach out to a professional and my suggestion is people reach out sooner rather than later. That doesn't mean that we engage a professional at this point, but just to let people know that there are folks like myself, mediators, facilitators, who are skilled at doing this stuff and sometimes it is helpful to have someone who is not in the problem helping. So sometimes it's just like an outside voice to observe what's going on to help people, you know, have a conversation and basically not get caught up. I have this image from my childhood of Carol Burnett, some sketch where she's on a game show and she's in a human sized paper bag and can't get her way out. And I like and sometimes that that's what happens. We are so in our own blinders and our own vision of the world that we can't see it. So sometimes it is well meaning you don't have, I do work with families that have lots of conflict and I work with families who are like, you know what? It's not that we I have lots of conflicts, but we care about our relationship and so we better if we worked with someone who could help facilitate our conversation or witness our conversations, so we don't go places that will be that we fear will be irreparable. Not that they are, families are special places. So I think there it's you know, it's really an opportunity, the other thing too is when I work with the family, what I say is my goal is to be as involved as families need. So my hope is that what I can do is help families start and think about a process or pull back and think about how they're entering the conversation and what their goals are, what their needs are, the interests that we talked about. And you know, there may come a point where they don't need me anymore, which is fine because they have a new way of thinking and proceeding and then they're done with the formal mediation part I think of our roles as we’re available when people want us, but we also what we are in the background and we may never hear from you again because your family may have reached a new status quo or solve the problem. That is why you came to mediation. You know, I think in mediation were forward focused. I can't undo the sibling rivalry from your childhood or the fact that you were, you know, deemed too young to go on the trip to Disney world, which everybody always talks about and you know, you forever resent that. I can't do that. But can I help you think about how to move forward absolutely with where you are, the resources you have about the supports.
Cathleen: I love the fact that some families choose to work with the mediator because they don't want to damage their relationship and connection with each other. I think that's just a really beautiful idea. Just a final question, do you have any final recommendations you would give for our listeners who are thinking about or in the midst of having these conversations? This has been so helpful. And you've had a lot of really great suggestions. Anything that you'd like to add?
Ellen: Yeah, I think in closing, I would like to say two things and one that I think did it before is I think a lot of times we have to sit with what the dissonance of that, what we are concerned about and our fears may, the things that we want may not be what happens because our loved ones may not be willing to do that in the Boston globe this month, in january of 2022 for people who are listening later, there's a musician whose parents were found deceased in their home. And you know, it's a very sad story, but it also was a story where she and possibly her siblings to constantly reached out to her parents and saying, you know, you know, I can help, we can do this. You know, we can make it your home more more livable for you. And really that was all that she could do because her parents, you know, were very, you know, felt very certain that that's not what they wanted. And it was painful and sad. But also the other thing too, that I thought was important. And this is my other thing is that to give ourselves self compassion that we don't control these things, that our loved ones may make choices that make us uncomfortable, but they're making choices for themselves related to that is the recognition that not doing anything different is a choice. And that I think we sometimes have to, you know, highlight that that if we don't do anything, you're living with this risk, you can do that. I'm uncomfortable with it, but it's your life and you can live with that risk. And if that risk, you know, you get the wrong roll of the dice, then you know, we'll deal with the consequences. And so I think recognizing that, you know, when sitting with our discomfort that we're not may not get the outcome we want, but also giving ourselves grace and compassion to realize that that is okay. Sometimes that's the best that we can do and to you know, forgive ourselves because we can't control the adults in our lives.
Cathleen: That is true. And I do think your last point is worth repeating that sometimes older adults feel that I'm not going to make a change because if I stay where I am right now, nothing will change. And it's almost subliminal that you know, I'm not going to make a change because I'm fine and no matter where you are, change finds you and the world moves on. You get older things change. So just staying in the same place is not antidote for change. So we all have to be resilient. But it's worth noting your last piece that all you can do is try. All you can do is have these conversations with compassion and open heart and try and understanding that you may not have the solution and hope for a good outcome.
Ellen: We hope for a good outcome and may we all have peace and body and spirit because that's really the best that we can do for ourselves.
Cathleen: Well, that’s wonderful. That is fantastic. In our show notes, we're going to have links to Ellen's website and a few books she recommends for pre reading and Ellen, it has been a true blessing to have you on the show. I think this conversation I know it will help hundreds of people rethink how they engage with their siblings and their families about how they think about older adults in their lives and thank you for helping us in this very practical way.
Ellen: Cathleen, thank you for inviting me to be here. I hope people will have these difficult conversations in more productive ways.
Cathleen: Well, that's our show for today. If you enjoyed it, please give us a rating and a comment on Apple Podcasts. That way, other people find us. I love recommendations on how to improve the podcast since we're still very new. So reach out to seniorityauthority.org with any questions suggestions or comments and until then, enjoy the chance to get smarter about growing older, thank you. Thanks to our show sponsor the Riverwoods group, Northern New England's largest family of a nonprofit retirement communities where active adults find community purpose and peace of mind, visit riverwoodsgroup.org. That's our show for today. Did it spark a question? If so, send us your questions at seniorityauthority.org and I will track down the answer. Meanwhile, don't forget to subscribe, like us on Facebook, follow us on YouTube, and rate us on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, let's get smarter about growing older.